Sarah Vaughter answers questions about OwnDoc products

Forums => Dermarolling / Microneedling => Topic started by: Kay on November 07, 2012, 07:03:26 PM

Title: Why does Casey Bahr say that dermarolling permanently damages the skin?
Post by: Kay on November 07, 2012, 07:03:26 PM
I have recently done some research on the derma roller and this is what I found "The reason this torture device works is the dermis layer of skin rushes all kinds of "repairs" to heal the damage done by the puncture holes inflicted upon the skin.  also temporarily improves the skin's appearance. problem is the long term effect. The "repairs" greatly accelerates the decay of the dermis layer that only has a limited number of repairs in it before it starts to permanently collapse. When the collapse happens wrinkles and harder skin are the result. So, in effect, users are prematurely aging their appearance for a very temporary improvement. A more sustainable alternative is Botox or Dysport  at a much lower treatment cost. Results last 3-5 months even longer with periodic treatment, they don't damage the dermis layer of skin." I read this in a post on website reviewing the dermaroller.  please comment.
Title: Why does Casey Bahr say that dermarolling permanently damages the skin?
Post by: Maria on November 08, 2012, 12:56:20 AM
Kay I'm not sure where you got your information from. I'm a licensed aesthetician and collagen can reproduce itself and the results are permanent. I have been dermarolling for several months and have seen no long term negative effects from it.
Title: Why does Casey Bahr say that dermarolling permanently damages the skin?
Post by: SarahVaughter on November 08, 2012, 03:51:40 AM
I found the source of the claim here, it was a comment by Casey Bahr on an article in the (see first attachment below). I changed the title of your posting to make the case more clear.

He claims that Botox and Dysport treatments are better than dermaneedling, as he claims that dermaneedling destroys your skin after a while, according to him it only makes your skin look good initially, and after that it will be permanently damaged because the skin can only renew itself a limited number of times.

Who is Casey Bahr? He mentions in his "full disclosure" that he has "no financial interest in companies selling Botox or Dysport". Perhaps he has no shares in the manufacturers, but he forgot to mention that he sells those treatments in his own clinic! On top of that, his clinic sells laser treatments as well. In short, Mr. Bahr feels threatened by the phenomenon of dermarolling. The ever growing group of "home-rollers" do not need to visit his clinic anymore. The beginning of the end for business like his, because laser treatment for example causes incomparably more negative side effects than dermaneedling.

Casey Bahr is the CEO of Revive Wellness Center in 353 S. Palm Canyon Drive Palm Springs, CA 92262. I added his LinkedIn profile below as an attachment so you can verify.

Revive heavily advertizes both Botox and Dysport, e.g. under "Injection Treatments". I attached evidence below, straight from Mr. Bahr's website.

So that is why Mr. Bahr spreads these lies about dermaneedling under the #1 mainstream news dermaneedling article (it ranks highest in the mainstream media for many search terms pertaining dermaneedling). And we can't defend ourselves against these extremely grave allegations, because comments on that article are not accepted anymore. Mr. Bahr is afraid he'll make less money when less people come to his clinic to get Botox or Dysport treatments. That's all. For the rest he offers no evidence to back up his claim that the skin has only a "limited number of regenerations before it will permanently collapse due to the permanent damage".  So much for Mr. Bahr's "full disclosure". It's a well-executed act of disinformation with financial motives.

As to his allegations: Of course it is impossible to prove a negative, so he himself has to provide evidence for his claim, akin to saing that the more often you cut your hair, the sooner you'll get bald. Skin cells are constantly produced by stem cells, there is no limit to that. Also, collagen is produced until you are dead - there is also no limit to that. I addressed this topic in detail here:

When a person who is 100 years old (or 120 years old) cuts herself, the skin will renew. And the reason that older people have worse looking skin than young people is mainly sun-induced DNA damage, not Mr. Bahr's alleged exhaustion of the stem cells that produce new skin. That is why elderly Greek farmers have thick, tanned skin and elderly Norwegian office workers don't. He should back up his claim or refrain from making libellous statements in the British media.

Libel with intent to do financial harm to a competitor is a very serious crime in the UK and Mr. Bahr can therefore be glad he is a US citizen. Apart from that, his statement is maliciously intended to provoke severe distress in hundreds of thousands of "homerollers" (our company alone has tens of thousands of customers) and that is illegal as well in the United Kingdom. (Not that I agree with that law, but that is another matter entirely.) So Mr. Bahr, by his nefarious actions made himself guilty of two prisonable offences in the UK. We really have to stop tolerating such things, because next time he'll do it anonymously or pretend he's a doctor. Spreading lies that make countless people very worried with the intent of getting richer yourself and putting your ethical competitors out of business is rightfully so a criminal offense in the UK. Sorry that I dwell on the legal aspect, but I want others to realize that if Mr. Bahr would be German or French or any other EU citizen, we could start a lawsuit against him in Britain (with the strictest libel laws in the world) and get him extradited on a EU arrest warrant, which can not be disputed by EU treaty. And if we would file a suit against him in absentia in Britain, he might be convicted and even though the US does not extradite their citizens, if he enters any EU country he would be arrested as a consequence of a Europol arrest warrant against him for the non-payment of fines and damages, or even for not showing up at the prison gates. I'm not saying we will sue Mr. Bahr, but I want others like him to know that we are monitoring the Internet for the spreading of disinformation with intent to harm businesses like ours and favor their own. Hiding behind anonimity is useless - IP addresses can be easily supoena'd and proxy server records can be as well. I may sound overly litigious but I think someone should put a stop to these devious spammers. It stops being mere spam when you actively attempt to shut down bona-fide businesses by scaring their customers with lies.

We started selling dermarneedling devices more than half a decade ago. We have tens of thousands of customers. We never heard of premature skin aging from them, nor from the medical literature. On the contrary, the whole point of dermaneedling is that it tricks the skin into orderly regeneration.

Don't take our word for it - look at Dr. Dermond Fernandes' skin, a real-life example.

Dr. Des Fernandes is 70 years old at the time of writing, he dermarolled his own face more than 50 times (Link to article ( and photo of his face ( are on our front page, as well as a link to a recent interview with him on YouTube ( I've never seen someone that old with such good looking skin! If his skin would have been destroyed by those 50 dermaneedling treatments (and he uses very long needles!), not even the best facelift in the world would hide the damage. Fernandes invented the dermaroller in its current form and has been treating celebrities for decades. He and his clients are living proof that dermaneedling works.
Title: Re: Why does Casey Bahr say that dermarolling permanently damages the skin?
Post by: Kay on November 08, 2012, 11:44:46 AM
Sarah,  thank you so much for taking your time to go into this more than I could.  I have been keen to try the dermaroller and was hesitant when I read this article on a website.  You have put my mind and rest and I will be ordering some products from you soon.  Boy, does Dr. Fernandes look good :D
Title: Re: Why does Casey Bahr say that dermarolling permanently damages the skin?
Post by: SarahVaughter on November 08, 2012, 01:07:04 PM
He looks a hell of a lot better than Casey Bahr and he's about twice as old :-)
Title: Re: Why does Casey Bahr say that dermarolling permanently damages the skin?
Post by: Swan on November 11, 2012, 09:31:08 AM
never seen a 70 year old with such amazing looking skin!!
Title: Re: Why does Casey Bahr say that dermarolling permanently damages the skin?
Post by: SarahVaughter on November 11, 2012, 11:04:19 AM
Yes :-)

And before our detractors will claim that this is due to a facelift, attached is Dr. Fernandes after rolling his face with a 3 mm roller.

Fernandes' face can be seen all over the medical literature after rolling with needle sizes from 1 mm to 3 mm. He really gave himself over 50 dermaneedling treatments. If Mr. Bahr would have been right, Fernandes' face would by now look like a mouldy Swiss cheese.

The reason so many CEO's of clinics post so much nonsense about dermaneedling is that they know it is a threat to their livelihood.

Source of the photographs:

Clinics in Dermatology (2008) 26, 192-199
Combating photoaging with percutaneous collagen induction
Desmond Fernandes, Massimo Signorini