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Author Topic: Copper peptides  (Read 72807 times)

kakalakingma

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Copper peptides
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2011, 11:41:51 PM »
To Emily And Sarah,

     I am very happy that I got to clear up my name! I rather people see me as reasonable as possible than a jerk. Yeah, I wanna be a doc one day. LOLOLOLOL.

     Sarah, I don't think it is a good thing I accept your present. I don't think I deserve it at all. I don't want people to think that I have been all helpful and nice as a way to manipulate you to give me stuff. Oh my goodness, that is the last thing I want! I don't mind being interactive on your forum as long as you accept me and treat me reasonably. It is when I found out about your website that I got all into the skin remodeling craze! So I have to thank you very much. I heard of copper peptide and derma roller before long ago, but it is not until your website was on my screen that I got all enthusiastic. That is why I bought your derma roller and ELMA. Haven't started it yet, still dealing with last bit of pimples!

emily100

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Copper peptides
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2011, 02:32:01 AM »
thank you for your input, once again. and yes, will definitely post my testimony. I surely hope to have a favorable one.    My tt surgery was in May, so the scars are now 8 months old.  I will also be going in for a revision on another surgery I had at the end of the month where brand new scars will be created in another area.  So not only will I be giving a testimony on all this for 8 month scars....but also for new scars.  As for the needling, it's fine to needle 8 month scars, I am thinking.....I think Sarah had told me as long as they were fully sealed up / no wounds.  I am just scared b/c I know the scar could temporarily look worse and that would frighten me that it might be permanent. At some timepoint, I gotta bit the bullet though, as I believe in the science behind it.  But oh how tedious a process that shall be! :(

Actually, my surgeon recommended doing nothing for scar management, saying it's the person's genetics and ability to just naturally heal that means the most ....that and time.  However, I am one of those that cannot just sit back and do nothing. So in addition to scar massage, I have used Bio-Oil, Scar Esthetique, Shea Butter, and here recently, I bought a vat of virgin coconut oil after seeing one girl's wonderful results on another surgery forum I am on. When I wear the silicone sheeting, no oils/lotions can be underneath.  So I probably won't be able to wear the sheeting once I start doing all the SRCP's/RetinA/Vit C / AHA's. oh well. I'll figure it all out.

Ok I am headed to bed. It's 1:30am where I am. Interesting stuff on this site and the SkinBiology site. Very cool and I hope all this is really true ....how skin can be "remodeled". Gahhh, that would be wonderful. Oh, and really quick....I am considering putting the SRCP's on my tummy skin. As i mentioned, I had a tummy tuck. My skin elasticity is about as poor as it comes - hence the surgery. Well, I can tell it's already kinda loosening up. :(   so I am thinking of doing something for my overall stomach too. Will report back. BTW, how long do the products last?  Is it like every 30 days or a few months?

Ok goodnight and thanks to both of you once again!

kakalakingma

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Copper peptides
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2011, 04:16:40 AM »
@ Emily,

    I hope everything will go well with your scar management. I think your doc is right that your skin heals on its own, but the point of skin care products is to speed it up! Here is an analogy, if you know about our skin natural exfoliation cycle, it is around 28 days or a month. But for some people, waiting that long can lead to having flaky and dull looking complexion if you don't remove the dead skin cells. In other words, some people flak faster than their skin can shed the cells off making them look ashy. Not good. Not good. That is where exfoliants comes in! A gentle exfoliants faciliate our natural exfoliation process by unglueing the "mortar" that holds our skin cells together. Not everyone's genetics are the same so some people get the healing process slower than others along with other factors influencing the healing process like diet and lifestyle.

    I have no proof yet, but I think you are safest with silicone sheeting on "fresh" wounds (please check with your doc on this) for a month or so or longer. Maybe use that at night and copper in the morning to speed things up. Then, you won't have to worry about mixing them together. You can alternate the days for copper peptide and tretinoin. Be careful on SRCP super cop 2x from the kit you bought because it is touted as the strongest; you probably want to dilute it with water. On the mornings after you apply copper peptide or tretinoin, you should apply ointment like Sarah's Infadolan. Or even 100% petrolatum would work, but Sarah's ointment is better because of the vitamin A and D. The point of the ointment or vaseline is to provide a protective barrier so your wound can HEAL!

    Emily, another thing is you need to be careful about falling into the claims and anecdotal evidence to satisfy your worries. All of those shea butter and oils and coconut oils are really... emollients. Shea butter is good because it has antioxidant similiar to green tea. But really in general when you hear oils you should think fatty acids like linolenic acid, oleic acid, omega fatty acids, stuff like that. You might as well go to your kitchen pantry and apply extra virgin olive oil on your wound if you want something rich in emollients and antioxidant and cheap at the same time! You really should just stick with simplicity before you get all worried up again. The LAST thing you want is to used up so many "hyped" products that you end up developing irritantion to your wound area, which is NEVER good.

    Think this over, and if you agree with me (better yet ask your doc!), then you should follow that regimen I have put up there. Remember: gentle cleanser, alpha hydrox, copper peptide, retinoid, vitamin C (this I think optional), ointment, and sunscreen. There is no need to splurge on expensive skin care products. Sarah sells affordable copper peptide and retinoid and vitamin C DIY. I say everything should be less than 70 dollars (excluding derma roller)

   I check the kit and I don't think it will ask that long. I think the kit is for you to test if your skin is compatible with the product. You know, to try it out. But you do get an official 1 oz size super cp serum, which lasting matter depend on how large your wound is!

best wishes

SarahVaughter

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Copper peptides
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2011, 07:52:44 AM »
Emily, the first thing to make clear is that there currently is no method that can completely get rid of deep scars or stretch marks. You can only improve them.

   

  By dermarolling and especially by single needling or derma stamping you can achieve remodeling of the scar - the alignment of the scar tissue will remodel. Unfortunately it will not remodel back into scar-less skin but in many cases it softens the scar, improve its color, texture and depth.

     

  You can certainly needle your surgery scar eight months post-surgery.

   As Kakalakingma said, you can use A-Ret in combination with copper peptides but you should not apply it in combination with vit. C. Vit. C stays in the skin for several days (the levels are going down - its tissue half-time is 4 days) so applying it every second or third day is sufficient.

I normally do not recommend using acidic products such as Retinoic acid (A-Ret ) immediately after needling/rolling because it will sting and irritate the skin but in case of scars or stretch marks it is OK provided you can handle the stinging. Wait a little and then you can top A-Ret off with a little bit of Infadolan.

  I always advise to do a needling test patch on a small part of the scar.

  Thus you will find out how it turns out. Keep in mind though that remodeling of a scar takes months. Do not give up too soon.

   Needling by itself often "wakes up" melanocytes.

   

  In addition, you can attempt a transfer of melanocytes:

   

  Needle your scars and immediately roll all over the area (scars and surrounding scar-free skin) with a 0.5 mm roller. The melanocytes are at the bottom of the epidermis, which is about the depth to which the 0.5 mm roller penetrates.

   

  Read more here (scroll down for my answer number 2)

   

  http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/Melanocytes-transfer-for-white-scars-and-hypopigmentation
My comments should not be considered medical advice.

The dermaneedling part of our site is http://owndoc.com/dermarolling/

Our digital dermaneedling device ($170 for home users and clinics): http://derminator.com/

Derminator videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/owndoc/videos?flow=grid

emily100

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Copper peptides
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2011, 02:43:49 PM »
Ok, here is what I have determined I am going to do:

SCAR MGMT:  Needling, Vit C (every few days...not close to SRCPs or Ret-A); LacSal exfoliant; strongest SRCPs of Dr. Pickart ("Super Cop 2X and Super CP Serum"); manual exfoliation with dermabrasion cloth; Infadolan

FACE:  Needling every 3 weeks w/ 1.0mm roller.   Needling every other day w/ .25 roller for product penetration (or is this .25 rolling needed now? if so, how do I incorporate it?) starting out w/ one of Dr. Pickart's milder 1st gen SRCPs, called "Protect & Restore High Retinol" followed by Emu Oil; also using LacSal as exfoliant at opposite end of day.  Eventually, I will move up the SRCP concentration continuum as my skin can tolerate it.  EYE AREA: "Skin Signals Creme" (1st gen)

TUMMY ELASTICITY (which is poor, even after having had a tummy tuck!!!!):  Dr. Pickart's "Skin Signals Creme" --- due it being his only product with the fragmented collagen and elastin.  Since this is a 1st gen creme, I will eventually work up to adding a 2nd generation SRCP for the big daddy skin remodeling, but I will always use SS Creme, due to the elastin and collagen fragments.

ALL OVER BODY ELASTICITY (namely thighs and chest):  Dermarolling 1.5mm;  "Protect & Restore" Body Lotion. (Note to self: wondering if I need to do some type of body exfoliation to go along with this)



Note to Sarah:  In switching over to these stronger SRCPs, is there still a place for your GHK-Cu masks, as I just bought ten of them last week.

-----

Ok, I think I am getting the hang of it.  Boy, that was confusing at first. I spent all last night reading the SB Forum trying to get my head around all the different choices. It's making more sense now. I see some immediately start out w/ the strongest on their face and got great results.  However, I am scared to do that.  I also read where overuse of SRCPs can cause temporary sagging and crepey-ness. That would freak me out, even if only temporary.  So anyways, thank you for all your input, Sarah and Kakalakingma!  This has been very informative! Hope I can turn back the hands of time slightly!

SarahVaughter

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Copper peptides
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2011, 04:02:50 PM »
@Emily:

We are very sceptical towards those "2nd generation SRCP's".

As Kakalakingma said, the ingredients are Copper chloride (which has nothing to do with copper peptide and is just cheap blue blue dye basically) and hydrolized soy protein, which is a run-of-the mill emulsifier.

I avoided criticizing Dr. Pickart but since you leave me no choice - It is our position that his SRCP's can be assumed to contain hardly any GHK-Cu unless it is proven by lab analysis that it does. Copper peptides are extremely expensive because this complex molecule is devilishly hard to synthesize. The copper peptide we are talking about, GHK-Cu, is called Glycyl-L-histidyl-L-lysine-Cu(2+) and as any chemist can see, this has little to do with the simple Copper chloride salt. Copper peptides cost almost twice the price of gold, gram-for-gram. You can verify that for yourself. It is therefore hard to make a profit on a large bottle with a GHK-Cu product. At the very least, one would have to sell such a bottle for several hundred dollars to make a modest profit. If there is no GHK-Cu on the ingredient list (in a high concentration) and if this can't be independently verified, it's safe to assume it's a scam, sorry to say. Dr. Pickart can come here and elaborate - I just go by Kakalakingma's remark that the stated ingredients are CuCl2 and hydrolized soy protein. No mention of GHK-Cu. If that's correct, and his further observations/remarks suggest so (even though he himself gives Dr. Pickart the benefit of the doubt), then I do not believe the product contains any significant concentration of copper peptides. Please bear in mind that Dr. Pickart is in the Copper "peptide" business to make money and the fact that he is mentioned half a dozen times in the footnotes of the copper peptides Wikipedia article and in many studies can either mean he is a respected scientist or a relentless self-promoter. The studies I found on copper peptides that mention him, seem to have largely been paid for by himself. He donated the copper peptides, for example, making him an investor, influencer and stakeholder in the study. This is all too common nowadays. Don't forget that he used to be, and to a large extent still is, the only one hyper-promoting and agressively selling these products, using near-fraudulent claims and doubtful formulations of products that have no copper peptides on their ingredient list, but are suppost to perform "much better". To the bottom line, no doubt. Searching for "Dr. Pickart" on Google gives as search result #1 "Stay young / fountain of youth". Snake oil, people. Copper peptides, the real GHK-Cu ones, have some beneficial effect on the skin but they can by no means make you "stay young" or are the "fountain of youth". Commercial hype. It is highly questionable whether his "second generation skin remodelling copper peptides" in fact contain a medically significant amount of them.

Peptides do form when proteins and CuCl are combined, but then I'd like to know the exact type of peptides and their concentration. There has been no study on his 2nd gen copper products, they don't contain GHK-Cu and the FDA did not approve them as a drug. Kakalakingma called his office and his assistant said the type and concentration of the peptides was their secret. Dr. Pickart would already be a multi-millionaire if he started a copper peptide factory according to his magical chemical miracle method. A gram of GHK-Cu goes for around 70 dollars on the world market. 13 kilo of soy and copper chloride would then be sufficient to yield him a million dollars worth of GHK-Cu. All he'd need is a bucket of soy protein and a bucket of Copper chloride, mixed in a bathtub filled with water of the required purity and temperature. Say 250 dollars' worth of ingredients.
My comments should not be considered medical advice.

The dermaneedling part of our site is http://owndoc.com/dermarolling/

Our digital dermaneedling device ($170 for home users and clinics): http://derminator.com/

Derminator videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/owndoc/videos?flow=grid

emily100

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Copper peptides
« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2011, 09:43:59 PM »
Wow. Well, ok then. This is exactly why I was surprised you were ok with all of his shining comments towards Dr. P's products. Confused me.  This surprises me, due to the conversation a few posts above this.  You wanted to give Kaka a present, in fact?  Now I see you are very against them. :( Wish I'd known both views ahead of time, when I was asking.... too late. I've now bought my first products at this point and am hoping they work.  My thoughts are:  If it's snake oil, why is it working on so many people?? People have been using these products for over 5 yrs in many instances. Doesn't that say something? I am just asking this innocently, trying to understand this whole deal.  There are so many posts on there w/ positive comments.  So I dunno what to think to be honest.  I can understand his not publishing the exact formulation, though --- I've known a few businesses with health products that won't tell the actual formulation, so as not to be mimicked.  Maybe that is his fear?  I really don't know....

The "Stay Young" google search....well, that is not really surprising to me at all. I just let that stuff go in one ear and out the other.  It's the catch phrase for almost all beauty products these days; I don't think most people are that naieve anymore.  Copper peptides do seem to reverse years of aging/skin blemishes for people though.  I am interested n the science behind copper peptides, which I have received from both yours and Dr. Pickart's site now (via Kakalalingma).

By the way, I will not be offended if you delete all the Dr. Pickart related posts from me on your forum. Not trying to do any harm here.

SarahVaughter

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Copper peptides
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2011, 03:42:59 AM »
I have nothing against Kakalakingma. Kakalakingma is an honest, helpful forum participant. I simply have a different opinion than him about this issue. It could be that he is right, it could be that Dr. Pickart is right, it could be that you are right, it could be that I am right.

This forum is a place to exchange views, that's all. I am not "against" Kakalakingma, not at all. I think he brings a lot of useful information to the table and I think he answers many questions here very thoroughly and properly. He has answered many questions better than I could do without doing a lot of research first. He clearly is extremely educated about these topics. That does not mean he knows everything. I already voiced my concern a few days ago in this thread, about the ingredients and my scepticism. He said that perhaps there was something "special" about Dr. Pickarts 2nd generation blue water. I left it at that. It is for the reader to draw conclusions and investigate further. I said I was sceptical and I gave my reasons, Kakalakingma said perhaps there was something we did not know about Dr. Pickarts formulation. Who knows. But you interpreted this wrongly. You interpreted this as my endorsement for everything K said.

This forum used to be a place where I answered 100% of all questions posed. But I can't remain the "dictator" of this forum much longer. Too many questions are asked about too many things that do not concern our products. We can't possibly answer all questions about all (competing) products for example. We also don't want to say too many bad things about competing products. What we want is this forum to be a place of discussion by the forum participants, and we will answer what we can, and we will give our opinion when required. When you said that our GHK-Cu product was in fact obsolete because Dr. Pickart implies so, it went too far and I stated my detailed opinion. Writing my detailed, well-argued opinion took me an hour, however. I can't spend my life here, dissing other people's products. There are too many questionable products out there. Buyer beware. Do your research. When I say that his "peptides" likely don't have any peptides in them and "Kaka" says perhaps they have something special that we don't know about, then you can't just believe whomever posted last. You have to use your own brain :-)

"People have been using these products for 5 years" - People have been smoking for 50 years and more. Why do people do things? In this case it's marketing. And I'm not sure people used his "2nd generation peptides" for 5 years. Why do people use ThreeLac while it doesn't work against mycelial Candida or the symptoms commonly misdiagnosed as intestinal Candidiasis? I can't help but noticing a linear relationship between marketing effort and product purchase. People believe a lot, as long as "everybody else is using it" and "everybody says that it helps". Sorry to say, but 95% of people are "sheeple". They follow the herd without thinking for themselves.

All that counts are the facts. FACT: - No copper peptides in the ingredients list. FACT: Promises of eternal youth. ERGO: A bunch of nonsense.

I will later add something to this thread/posting. I know that Pickart cheated, documenting the efficacy of his products. He used a girl that had an acid burn wound and he claims his product made her heal nicely. However, it is scientifically arguable that she would have healed just as nicely without. He twisted the facts in that case. I hope it's still on his site.

Pickart is singlehandedly responsible for hyping Copper peptides. They have but a limited effect on skin enhancement. We do not think you should spend much money on them at all, due to the limited added value they have. Vit. A and C likely are an order of magnitude more beneficial to the skin healing process than even the best copper peptides formulations. Coper peptides are a nice "icing on the cake" but by no means essential. Just about the only one benefiting from the hype is Dr. Pickart. He most likely wrote the Wikipedia article on Copper peptides himself and he seems to be sponsoring most research into them as well. Someone asked us to sell copper peptides and we found a very good product with a high (the highest recommendable) concentration of CHK-Cu, for a low price (we sell them for 3 dollars per mask). We did not find any other copper peptide products that are both trustworthy and reasonably priced. None. Otherwise we would be selling it already. We do not think that copper peptides are such a miracle product that one should spend much money on them.

About deleting postings: I value everyone's input, so as long as people don't post SPAM or impolite attacks on others, I think we should just leave things be, so that others can easily follow the discussion. It would be very boring, a forum where everybody always agrees with everybody :-)
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 03:45:15 PM by SarahVaughter »
My comments should not be considered medical advice.

The dermaneedling part of our site is http://owndoc.com/dermarolling/

Our digital dermaneedling device ($170 for home users and clinics): http://derminator.com/

Derminator videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/owndoc/videos?flow=grid

SarahVaughter

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Copper peptides
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2011, 10:55:06 AM »
Copper peptides are good for the skin (not many products are provenly helpful in skin remodeling), but they are not worth twice as much as gold. Hence do we recommend you do not spend more than a modest amount on them, and especially not spend a small fortune on fake products. And don't forget that our masks contain quite a few more beneficial ingredients. We thought that for 3 dollars it's a good deal.

Kakalakingma is a valuable asset to this small forum. He has brought a lot of good information to this forum and answered many questions very thoroughly.
My comments should not be considered medical advice.

The dermaneedling part of our site is http://owndoc.com/dermarolling/

Our digital dermaneedling device ($170 for home users and clinics): http://derminator.com/

Derminator videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/owndoc/videos?flow=grid

SarahVaughter

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Copper peptides
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2011, 01:15:36 PM »
I take everything back if it turns out that the ingredient list does in fact mention Copper peptides. I am assuming Kakalakingma told us the truth about the ingredients. He even called Pickart's office. Pickart is invited to explain here how hydrolized soy protein and Copper chloride combine into something with the price of Platinum, a molecule so complex that there is an entire field of Chemistry dedicated to simplify peptide synthesis, in order to bring down their price to the level of Gold as opposed to Platinum. Pickart's only comment so far has been "no comment".
My comments should not be considered medical advice.

The dermaneedling part of our site is http://owndoc.com/dermarolling/

Our digital dermaneedling device ($170 for home users and clinics): http://derminator.com/

Derminator videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/owndoc/videos?flow=grid

SarahVaughter

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Copper peptides
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2011, 01:50:01 PM »
We had someone look at Pickart's "before and after" testimonials. Someone who's quite knowledgeable with Adobe Photoshop. He says these pictures are highly manipulated to show less contrast, structure and detail from picture 1 to pictures 2 & 3 and picture 4. He says picture 1 is artificially darkened and picture 4 is artificially (very) brightened. Interestingly, he says that picture 2 & 3 are identical. The only change is a very subtle change in the red balance, and a shift of a few pixels.

He sent me these histograms to prove it. You can see that picture 1 is much darker than picture 2 and 3 (which have identical luminosity spectrums). He says that picture 2/3 is the original, because the spectrum is narrowest. Pic. 1 and 4 are photoshopped to exaggerate resp. hide detail.

Original:



Picture 1: (darkened - wider spectrum due to brightness reduction)



Picture 2 (original):



Picture 3 (identical to picture 2 except for minute modifications):



Picture 4 (wider spectrum due to brightness increase):



The histogram spectrum analysis was performed on the lower 3/4 of the photographs to avoid introducing a bias, an innaccuracy due to the pink quotes on a white background in the upper left of the first photo.

So these photo's are fake, plain and simple. even when picture #4 is perhaps a combination of "Photoshopping" and extra lighting, extra lighting is just as much manipulation as is image manipulation. Any trick to make it seem "progress", be it Photoshop or a halogen lamp is fraud. In order to be taken seriously, the pictures should all have roughly the same spectrum. Same X-position and same width. The fact that they are vastly different shows digital manipulation as well as possible lighting tricks.

On top of that - and here comes my own expertise - even if these photo's were real, they would prove exactly nothing. The acid burn would have healed just as well with copper peptides as without. But the photo's show nothing. They are so heavily manipulated that nothing can be derived from them at all. Those red marks aren't stretchmarks, they are burns from acid peels. The stretchmarks themselves did not improve visibly. Most likely, these photo's were taken in the same session, and they were 100% certainly Photoshopped to make it seem "progress". I am only the messenger, people. I know Pickart is loved and respected by many. We knew for a long time that he is a questionable player in this field. We avoided exposing him because we are not in the business of tarnishing people's reputation and starting wars. Most likely, this is going to reflect badly on us and people will be posting bad things about us because we attacked their Dr. Pickart. However, the line is drawn when someone suggests that his "peptides" are stronger than ours. We have to defend ourselves when people start sugegsting on our own forum that Pickart's "peptides" are better than ours.

I want to ass that Dr. Pickart is more than welcome to criticize our products and we will not prevent him from posting here either.
My comments should not be considered medical advice.

The dermaneedling part of our site is http://owndoc.com/dermarolling/

Our digital dermaneedling device ($170 for home users and clinics): http://derminator.com/

Derminator videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/owndoc/videos?flow=grid

SarahVaughter

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Copper peptides
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2011, 02:43:16 PM »
I am just saying that what he sells are not copper peptides, and that neither does he have any before-and-after pictures to show any results.

The research is neither independent nor unbiased. We found plenty research where Pickart provided the peptides. He can provide one thing and sell another, obviously. He is not even denying it. And since he is the only one to benefit greatly from a positive result, it is questionable whether research done by obscure researchers have any merit at all - especially seen the fact that we've already established that the before-and-after pictures are crude fakes and that his 2nd generation Skin Remodeling Copper Peptides are in fact a suspension of weed killer in soya sauce, to take some poetic liberties.

But please - if you do not want to hear my opinion on people's products, don't ask me for it. If I do give my opinion, don't be angry when I express it, based on a solid understanding of resp. chemistry and image manipulation. What we don't know, we get outside expertise for. Everything we say is based on science and logic. We greatly encourage people to find flaws in our reasoning, so that the truth may emerge. I will be the first to apologize for mistakes made.
My comments should not be considered medical advice.

The dermaneedling part of our site is http://owndoc.com/dermarolling/

Our digital dermaneedling device ($170 for home users and clinics): http://derminator.com/

Derminator videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/owndoc/videos?flow=grid

SarahVaughter

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Copper peptides
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2011, 02:51:56 PM »
@Emily -

You are free to buy Pickart's products but please refrain from evangelizing for them here. We are not an advertizing platform for scammers.

As to the "different lighting": The luminosity histogram analysis shows the pictures are heavily manipulated. If it simply had been a lighting issue, the peaks in picture 1 and 4 would be as narrow as the peaks in picture 2 & 3, only shifted. If you do not believe us, please consult any image manipulation expert of your choice and report back here with their judgement and credentials. Dr. Pickart is also invited to explain and he can come with any outside expertise to prove that his claims of "peptides" and his photographs are genuine.

And sorry for being blunt! If I were a sweet old lady, I would never have started this site - a lot is about separating the wheat from the chaff.
My comments should not be considered medical advice.

The dermaneedling part of our site is http://owndoc.com/dermarolling/

Our digital dermaneedling device ($170 for home users and clinics): http://derminator.com/

Derminator videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/owndoc/videos?flow=grid

SarahVaughter

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Copper peptides
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2011, 12:29:04 PM »
Emily100 was banned because of the following reasons:

1. She said she did not understand my arguments but she also was not interested in them, preferring to believe Dr. Pickart instead of me, strongly suggesting that I was basically libelling him.

2. She suggested that our analysis of Pickarts' fake before-and-after pictures was bogus, disinformation. Without offering an alternate explanation or refuting our arguments.

3. Then she went on to strongly endorse Dr. Pickart's products, even though our (understandable?) rule is that promoting competing products here is not allowed. Especially not when the competitor has just been exposed as a scammer. Don't tell me I'm a liar. Just don't. Not on my own forum.

4. Various rude remarks directed towards you, and towards me. It is a well-known phenomenon on forums that the most valuable contributors such as yourself face vehement opposition from certain other discussion participants. We have chosen to have a zero-tolerance policy towards such meta-critiscism. (criticism against the person and character and intentions and ulterior motives and behavior and prolificness and topic-selection of a poster, not against the actual content of the postings). We ban spammers and since yesterday we ban rude people who provide no substance. It is an act of extreme disrespect to say that you do not understand the argument, that you are not interested in the argument, but that you prefer to believe that the site owner is the scammer, and not Dr. Pickart in this case. She even said that she did not like me any more, and that she would not post here any more, and that I should delete her postings. I do not want her postings to be deleted, because they document her increasingly rude remarks over the course of this thread. To avoid that she deletes her own postings and then accuse me of rudeness on other forums without us having the ability to defend ourselves, I blocked her from accessing her own posts.

I know that emily100 made nice remarks about me in the past but I won't tolerate suggestions that I am a slanderer, that I lie and mislead, that I cause customers financial damage out of negligence, that I am a bad forum moderator etc. Not on my own forum.

No amount of flattery will make me tolerate such insults. This forum is provided as a service to whomever is seeking answers to questions. It is not a platform for Sarah-bashing. Zero tolerance for anyone attacking other forum members, zero tolerance for spammers and zero tolerance for rudeness and accusations of malfeasance towards myself. If emily wants to post again, she can create another account, it is trivial. She's banned to prevent her from deleting or editing her offending postings.

I have just started reading several long threads about Dr. Pickart's copper products. It seems that the more informed the people are, the more sceptical they are of his claims. Some report skin damage. Others report contradictions, false statements and other irregularities. A lot of critiscism towards the "research". Let Pickart show the original image files if he can be bothered. And let him explain how he can turn weed killer into gold. A quote from that thread: "I have tried the SkinBio CP Serum (regular strength) and it was a disaster for me!"  "Honestly, I never thought that a skin care product could do this to someone's skin." and    "i only wish my experience with cps was as pure and simple as throwing  the little green bottle away along with my $40.  instead, my skin aged  10+ years in six months"

A forum poster on that Essential Day Spa thread says that when he asked Pickart to clarify about the danger of free copper in his 2nd generation products, he answered that he does not want to discuss it with laypeople.

"I too find Dr. P to be full of contradictions. I've been to their forum a  few times & his asnwers to questions are short & rude IMHO. I  have also noticed a defitinite double-standard. He trashes every other  skin care line out there & says not to use anything that is not  supported by placebo-controlled, double blind, peer reviewed studies,  but then his products don't meet those criteria either."

To sum up my opinion on copper peptides: GHK-Cu has at least some documented beneficial effect on skin remodeling in case of healing scars. And on collagen production in general. But Pickart's "second generation skin remodeling copper peptides" are a scam. Buy his 1st generation line if you like. Not the 2nd- they are dangerous and they aren't GHK-Cu. On other forums, similar discussions about Pichart's latest copper products ignited a firestorm of ad-hominems. It seems the topic of copper peptides is a passionate one, almost like religious fundamentalism, Pickart being the main deity. As I said, we want to avoid that - we ban people who start insulting others.

Here's what experts have to say about Pickart's second gen copper products:

"Dear Heather,

Thank you for your email. I can understand your frustration & confusion in

regard to copper peptides. Due to patent restrictions, open research on

this ingredient until recently has been somewhat restricted. We use the

GHK-Cu (Gly-His-Lys+Cu2) in our Bio-Copper Serum due to the fact that this

is the only copper peptide complex that has published research to support

its safety & efficacy. To be frank, it is the belief of our chief

scientist that the so called “second generation” copper peptides or copper

chloride+hydrolyzed soy protein is not a real copper peptide, but a copper

and protein complex. Unlike GHK-Cu, this copper complex is not naturally

found in the body. Skin cells have no receptors to accept this molecule.

Therefore, it is broken down into free copper ions and protein fragments

which apparently have little to no benefit for skin.

Until more research is done on the copper/soy digest complex, I would not

recommend its use to any of our customers. This would be the case even if

we did not produce a GHK-Cu product. Copper is a trace metal that can

trigger edema, contact dermatitis, pro-oxidation by hydroxyl radicals &

DNA damage if not bound to a particular peptide in a specific, controlled

sequence. Copper complexes other than those naturally found in the body

(such as GHK-Cu) have been found to promote double-strand DNA damage,

dependent on their geometric structures and types of ligands. This is why

we have concerns with the copper chloride/hydrolyzed soy protein material.

Please note that the INCI ingredient name for this material denotes that

it is not an actual peptide, but a combination of two different

ingredients (copper and protein). This view is also shared by the Procyte

Corporation, which for years held the patent to GHK-Cu and sponsored &

published many of the studies on the use & safety of GHK-Cu on skin.

As for studies, there are published studies on GHK-Cu and wound healing,

collagen synthesis & inhibition of scar tissue formation. We are currently

doing a pilot study investigating the use of GHK-Cu on intact, aging skin.

We do not how far this study will go – if the pilot study stirs up enough

interest that a third party wishes to undertake more research on this

topic, then we will be thrilled. The problem that we face as a

manufacturer is that any independent studies that we carry out, even if

published & peer reviewed, will be criticized and doubted, since we are

also selling this material. For credible research to ensue on this

subject, a third party would have to find this topic deserving enough to

take over the research on their own, devise & carry out a study & report

their findings. With cures for diseases such as cancer and AIDS still

evading the scientific & medical community, I do not know that a

researcher would find the use of copper peptides on wrinkles a worthy

endeavor, and would spend the time acquiring funding for such a study that

would provide no long term benefit in their eyes. And if we were to

sponsor the study, as has been done in the past by other cosmetic

manufacturers, then the findings again would be constantly questioned &

dismissed as purchased research.

I understand your desire to compare GHK-Cu with the “second generation”

copper/soy protein complex, however we believe that such a comparison is

impossible for a few reasons. Firstly, the two materials are completely

different – maybe not apples & oranges, but…let’s say oranges &

grapefruits. One material is a true copper peptide, and the other is a

combination of copper and soy protein. Secondly, there is no publically

available research on the copper/soy protein material. The firm that holds

the patent on this material cites only research done on GHK-Cu and will

not release any studies (if they exist) on the copper/soy complex for

comparison. This makes it impossible for me to answer your question. I’m

not trying to be evasive, but I only deal with facts, and I do not have

enough information on the copper/soy material to make an informed argument

other than to again state that it is the belief of our scientists that

random mixtures of copper and proteins should be avoided and that the only

safe & effective copper protein complex that can or should be applied to

skin is GHK-Cu (Gly-His-Lys+Cu2).

I hope that I was able to answer some of your questions. Thank you again

for contacting Pure Skin Formulations."

There you have it. Dr. Pickart's 2nd generation SRCP's can cause cancer as well as skin damage. There is no GHK-Cu in it at all. There is no evidence that it works. The before-and-after pictures are fake. The promises are commercial hype.

Some more "testimonials" on 2nd gen SRCP's:

"The premature ageing effect I personally experienced happened only when I  used the copper, and it occured very quickly. It stopped once I  discontinued the copper, and it took me coming up to 2 years to get my  skin 95% back to normal again (ie. not prematurely aged)."

"So, as someone who saw first hand the havoc this stuff can wreak on your  skin, I believe you 100%. I was shocked that a cosmetic could do this  to someone!
"
My comments should not be considered medical advice.

The dermaneedling part of our site is http://owndoc.com/dermarolling/

Our digital dermaneedling device ($170 for home users and clinics): http://derminator.com/

Derminator videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/owndoc/videos?flow=grid

SarahVaughter

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Copper peptides
« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2011, 05:59:59 AM »
Emily100 sent me Pickart's copper "peptides" ingredients list, and I found exactly two products that actually contain Copper peptides (underlined in green):



The rest don't contain Copper peptides but Copper chloride and hydrolized soy protein.



His real Copper peptide products are:


- Super GHK Copper Cream

- Super GHK Copper Serum

Buy these if you are interested in using Copper peptides on your skin. They are likely genuine. Buy his real products. I believe the above can be beneficial to skin.

Pickart's fake "Copper peptides" are:

- BioHeal

- Skin Signals Solutiion

- Regular CP Serum

- Super CP Serum

- Skin Signals Cream

- P&R Classic

- P&R High Retinol

- Day Cover

- TriReduction

- Regular Super Cop

- Super Cop 2x

These products likely do not contain any GHK-Cu and are possibly harmful to the skin. There have been plenty of people reporting damage that took a year to heal. We link to some in this thread (to EDS).

I think he could not make enough money with his "1st generation". GHK-Cu is extremely expensive. Even Chinese-produced GHK-Cu would cost him 100 dollars to color a large bottle deep blue. GHK-Cu products are very expensive and therefore a niche market. But Copper chloride is not much more expensive than ordinary table salt. His marketing genius lies in saying: "Look, I'm a Chemist, I invented this stuff, I file patents, give lectures and sponsor studies".
My comments should not be considered medical advice.

The dermaneedling part of our site is http://owndoc.com/dermarolling/

Our digital dermaneedling device ($170 for home users and clinics): http://derminator.com/

Derminator videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/owndoc/videos?flow=grid