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Author Topic: Are the number of cycles of rejunevation unlimited ?  (Read 8024 times)

pradjcap

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Are the number of cycles of rejunevation unlimited ?
« on: December 05, 2010, 01:11:14 PM »
Hi Sarash,

I understand that dermarollers have the ability to naturally stimulate collagen and elastin production in the skin

I wonder (and i'm afraid of it) if by using  it, we don't compromise the futur of our skin.

Indeed,maybe the global volume of collagen that can product a skin is limited.

So maybe we just force our skin to overproduct prematurely some collagen during the time we use dermaroller.

So the stock capacities of our skin to product new collagen could be depleted in ten or twenty years.

Could i be wrong ?

SarahVaughter

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Are the number of cycles of rejunevation unlimited ?
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2010, 02:46:15 PM »
I am assuming you are referring to telomere shortening, causing aging due to the postulated Hayflick limit (theory).

It is fibroblasts and especially myofibroblasts that produce collagen. Since collagen production does not involve cell division and therefore telomere shortening (incidentally, not even sun damage causes telomere shortening) and collagen synthesis does not significantly wear out fibroblasts (which would eventually force them to divide, causing telomere shortening), we can assume that there is no risk of premature skin aging associated with microneedling.

Even if it were the case that collagen synthesis would cause telomere shortening, experts still believe that this will not result in premature aging:

Skin biologist Dr. Pickart investigated the Hayflick Limit (max. cell division limit due to telomere shortening) in his 1973 Ph.D. thesis and took the position that the Hayflick theory is at least partially incorrect. He argued that the theory of cells only being able to regenerate up to a certain generation or limit is unfounded. Dr. Pickart states that skin stem cells are plentiful in the skin, so that cells could continually be generated and remodeling can continue to occur. In the year 2000, it was discovered that the  skin has a constant source of new stem cells that arise from vellus hair follicles.  This work has been confirmed in many laboratories.

   As for limits on cell replication, most researchers in the area of cell culture doubt the Hayflick Limit (postulated about 1968) actually exists. If various growth factors are added to cultured cells, they seem to grow forever (for about 200 generations at least) without becoming mutated or cancerous. Such experiments are stopped not because the cells die, but because such long term experiments are expensive. Skin transplants from rat to rat to rat have been healthy for more than twice the lifespan of any rat.

"Stem cells by definition, have not yet been fully differentiated, and therefore many of these cells may continue to regenerate new cells for the entire lifespan of the organism, without limit, thus constituting a notable exception to the Hayflick limit in humans and other organisms. While the manifestations of the constant regenerative effects of stem cells is most easily seen in tissues which must constantly produce replacements for existing cells, such as skin and blood cells, stem cells of one form or another are found in every tissue of the human body, even if only as dormant stem cells known as "spore-like cells"."

http://www.molecularstation.com/wiki/Hayflick_limit

Cancer cells possess an enzyme called telomerase which is able to restore telomere length.

We conclude that there is no reason to believe that collagen production leads to telomere shortening, and that it even is controversial that telomere shortening causes premature skin aging.

In fact:

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telomere

   

  In vitro studies (von Zglinicki et al. 1995, 2000) have shown that telomeres are highly susceptible to oxidative stress. Telomere shortening due to free radicals explains the difference between the estimated loss per division because of the end-replication problem (ca. 20 bp) and actual telomere shortening rates (50-100 bp), and has a greater absolute impact on telomere length than shortening caused by the end-replication problem.

 

From that follows that skin ages mainly due to oxidative stress (and, even more so, sun exposure).  Microneedling involves the pre- and post-application of fat-soluble (vit. A) and water-soluble (vit. C) vitamins, and because those powerful antioxidants they are applied to "open" skin, the powerful anti-oxidative effect of these vitamins brought deep into the skin counteract one of the most powerful causes of skin aging - oxidative stress.

So far, medium-term studies show significant improvement of microneedled skin that is sustained over the years that follow.
My comments should not be considered medical advice.

The dermaneedling part of our site is http://owndoc.com/dermarolling/

Our digital dermaneedling device ($170 for home users and clinics): http://derminator.com/

Derminator videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/owndoc/videos?flow=grid

Anna

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Are the number of cycles of rejunevation unlimited ?
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2010, 07:31:59 PM »
that was one of my concerns too, but while I was researching this I came up on a site about skincare and there was a 20 something guy on there whos been rolling his face since 2003 and his skin looks baby smooth and he's prasing the dermaroller for fixing his acne scarring, so yeah that and reading this has put me at ease about the while thing. That was a very good question AND answer thanks guys.

kakalakingma

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Are the number of cycles of rejunevation unlimited ?
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2010, 09:05:18 PM »
WOW-zer, this post has such great question and information. I never thought about this. But I do want to ask, are we 100% sure or are we still under certain assumptions and sepculation about telomere shortening with some amount of substantiated research? Maybe until a long-term study is produced?

SarahVaughter

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Are the number of cycles of rejunevation unlimited ?
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2010, 03:21:02 AM »
In science, nothing is ever known for sure. Every theory has its counter-theories, every law of physics even has its disbelievers. There is always something more subtle that remains undiscovered.

Just about every dogma is still challenged by some eminent scientists, and often with very good arguments and experimental backup.

All we can do is look at the assumedly correct facts, apply logic, look at the results people achieve over time, search the medical literature, experiment etc.

So far, it looks good for microneedling :-)
My comments should not be considered medical advice.

The dermaneedling part of our site is http://owndoc.com/dermarolling/

Our digital dermaneedling device ($170 for home users and clinics): http://derminator.com/

Derminator videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/owndoc/videos?flow=grid

kakalakingma

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Are the number of cycles of rejunevation unlimited ?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2010, 10:01:34 AM »
You sound logical to me. I have faith in the research that you have gathered so I trust you. Until I find something otherwise, I don't think I can challenge you on this topic but I may ask more questions later. He-he. And I am glad it looks good for microneedling.